eCommerce Australia
Ryan Martin - Founder of eCommerce SEO Agency Remarkable Digital interviews Australian eCommerce experts to discuss trends, strategies, and best practice methods to run a successful online business.
Remarkable Digital - https://www.remarkabledigital.com.au/
We believe that in Australia we have some of the very best eCommerce leaders and it is our goal to highlight the best of the best, to help everyone who runs or is thinking about starting an eCommerce business.
With the ever-changing landscape, hear from the people on the front line living and breathing the business world of eCommerce.
eCommerce Australia
Lily Hargreaves - eCommerce Strategies That Work In Any Economy
Ever wondered how to transform raw social media content into a powerful e-commerce strategy?
Join us as we chat with Lily Hargreaves, an e-commerce superstar with a rich history at brands like Acler, Ryderwear, and Frank Green.
Lily takes us through her fascinating career journey across iconic Australian cities and shares her love for Adelaide’s serene coastal lifestyle and her favorite escapes in Port Elliot.
Lily dives deep into the art of optimizing e-commerce conversion rates. She breaks down the typical 2%-3% benchmark and shares invaluable tips on how traffic and product quality influence success.
With a special focus on the magic of authentic content, especially on TikTok, she reveals how raw, behind-the-scenes footage can capture the hearts of younger audiences far better than polished ads.
Lily also stresses the critical role of educating consumers on product quality and sustainability to justify higher price points effectively.
In the latter part of our conversation, we delve into essential metrics and skills for e-commerce managers.
Lily sheds light on customer lifetime value, returns data, and fulfillment timelines—key components for maintaining customer satisfaction.
We explore innovative loyalty programs and the impact of effective social media strategies, including working with micro-influencers and leveraging A/B testing.
To cap it all off, Lily shares strategies for achieving initial sales benchmarks, the benefits of using Shopify, and the role of influencers in boosting visibility and sales.
Don’t miss this episode packed with actionable insights for anyone looking to excel in the e-commerce space!
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Welcome to the Ecommerce Australia podcast. For those of you seeking direct assistance, remarkable Digital is just a call away. Our mission is to be remarkable, doing great things for great people and great businesses. I understand how much choice you have and how many podcasts are out there, so I'm truly grateful you've tuned in. Please let me know if you have any questions, comments or topics you'd like covered. Let's get started. Welcome to the eCommerce Australia podcast. Excited to pose some hard-hitting questions to our next guest, lily Hargrave. So, from roles like Head of Ecommerce at Acla Riderware and Frank Green, as well as consulting to many other e-commerce brands in Australia, lily has a fantastic background in e-com. We can and I know I certainly will learn a lot from this episode. So a big welcome to the podcast, lily.
Speaker 2:Thanks, ryan, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Looking forward to having you on the podcast. Your name's been on the list for 18 months to get you on here, given your background, and we finally got around to it. So yeah, looking forward to it Now off the top. You're based in Adelaide. Are you an Adelaide girl or a Melbourne girl? You've had roles in both.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I actually originally grew up in Sydney in New South Wales, so I've moved around a little bit, spent some of my teen years in the Gold Coast in Queensland as well. But yeah, I have been in Melbourne, was in Melbourne for about five years and then about five years ago moved to Adelaide. So yeah, I've been around the block and seen all parts of Australia.
Speaker 1:Nice. What about Perth? Have you got Perth in?
Speaker 2:I've been to Perth, but I haven't lived in Perth.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, perth's a great spot. I love Perth. I lived there for five years myself, but also spent six in the Barossa Valley. So what part of Adelaide are you from?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm in the west at the moment, so right near the beach, which is lovely. One of my favourite parts of Adelaide, compared to Melbourne, is being able to be, you know, five minutes from the beach, 10 minutes from the airport. It's a great spot.
Speaker 1:Beautiful. There we go. We've done a bit of heavy lifting for the tourist department in Adelaide. Have you got a football team? No-transcript. You can have September off, like my team in St Kilda.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, we could go on a holiday, or whatever that might look like. My family are Richmond supporters, though, so they're having a much worse time than I am.
Speaker 1:Well, that's it. They've had a much better time than you, I guess as well, there a few years back.
Speaker 2:That is true.
Speaker 1:Ebbs and flows exactly. Let's ask a couple of questions before we get into the e-commerce stuff. So, born in Sydney, spent some time on the Gold Coast. You've traveled around Australia. Have you got a favorite holiday destination, whether it be in Australia or overseas around Australia?
Speaker 2:have you got a favorite holiday destination, whether it be in Australia or overseas? I feel like this is a bit of a classic answer, but I have been to New York City a few times and I love the energy and the people and just how much there is to do there.
Speaker 1:Yep, what time of year did you go? Winter or like a Christmas?
Speaker 2:We went. It was in October, so it was just before Christmas we didn't get to see any snow. Unfortunately we were a bit too early and then the other time that I've been it was a bit earlier in the year, but, yeah, definitely never seen snow. That's my dream to sort of go back. You know, New Year's time I feel like a lot of people say that, but you know, be there when it's snowing and obviously they go all out for Christmas.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, beautiful part of the world. Okay, nice one. And what's a perfect weekend look like for you. Do you like to go away and relax, or what would be the ideal weekend?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think my ideal weekend. We try and get down to Port Elliot a fair bit, me and my partner, which is about an hour and a half out of Adelaide, a little sort of coastal beachside town which is beautiful. So getting down there and just, I don't know, getting some fresh air and you know I spent so much of my time at my computer or on my phone or doing things that involve screens, so anything that sort of gets us outside and you know has that. I mean Adelaide's pretty quiet as it is, but getting that peace and quiet and fresh air. You know I'm so excited for the weather to warm up and be able to get to the beach a bit more, because it really is my happy place.
Speaker 1:Beautiful, where's Port Elliot? Is that south?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's south, so you have to get on the Southern Expressway and then it's about an hour, about an hour south of Adelaide. So, yeah, there there's a very famous bakery in Port Elliot, if you're ever there, which you'll have to line up to get into. Oh, really. Yeah, yeah, it's a great spot Down in the oh I'm going to get this wrong Fleurot Peninsula.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, what's the bakery called?
Speaker 2:Port Elliot Bakery.
Speaker 1:Cool.
Speaker 2:If you know, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh nice. I'll have to look it up, I'll find some images and overlay that on the podcast.
Speaker 2:They do a donut of the month, like a different flavor donut every month that they're quite famous for, so I think that attracts a lot of people down there.
Speaker 1:Nice, I love it. Back in the days before Krispy Kreme was around, when I was living in Perth, like the absolute kind of thing to do from everyone was go over to Sydney or Melbourne and come back with this big box of Krispy Kremes. It was just like a Perth flight. You wouldn't be going to Perth unless there was, like you know, 10 people with Krispy Kreme boxes. I don't know what it is about donuts and Australians, but that's what we do.
Speaker 2:They were such a novelty then, weren't they? And now, yeah, you can get them at the footy and at the footy. And at the petrol station.
Speaker 1:Petrol stations, coals yeah, exactly, that's an interesting take on. You know, even in e-com and marketing, you know the point where it's just the market is just flooded now and it's become less of a novelty.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And what is the last book you've read or something that you're reading at the moment?
Speaker 2:I am currently reading a book. It's called Long Island Compromise. I don't know if you've seen the TV show Succession, but apparently it's similar to like Succession if it was in book form and I loved that TV series. So I thought I'd give this a try, trying to get off TikTok before bed and get back into reading. So yeah, too early to give a recommendation or not, but yeah, I've heard good things.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, we'll circle back and get the summary once you've finished it. But yeah, it's obviously a real thing, isn't it? When you work in e-commerce and digital, you know, getting off TikTok or Instagram, like you know, it can be easy to be on those platforms looking for, you know whether it's research or whether it's just scrolling but you know whether it's research or whether it's just scrolling, but you know you definitely need to get time away from those platforms for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it starts off as work and then ends, as you know, doom scrolling yeah, yeah, a hundred percent, yeah, all right. So what's your current role at the moment? What's work been like for you over the last six months? Just your, your current role, I mean in terms of sort of what have you been working on this year? Has it been e-commerce? Has it been digital marketing?
Speaker 2:Are you working for a few different brands, as well as something full-time, yeah. So I finished up my last head of e-com role in March of this year and since then I've just been sort of taking a little bit of time to sort of recalibrate and figure out what's next. So I have been doing some contract work for quite a big company here in Adelaide, helping them out with sort of their digital marketing presence both like for B2C but also helping out their customers, but then on the side also working with a few freelance businesses just to sort of, you know, keep the e-commerce side of my brain working, and I really do love getting to work across businesses that are sort of scaling and growing, so making sure that I can kind of tick both of those boxes while I figure out what's next for me in the e-com space.
Speaker 1:Yeah, nice one. And your LinkedIn post the other day said that you're sort of looking or open to opportunities, perhaps sort of later in this year or early next year. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so still figuring out what's next. I've got this mat leave contract that runs through until the end of the year and then, yeah, I guess I'll have to work out what comes next.
Speaker 1:Nice. I'm sure after this podcast I'll be knocking down the door with offers and opportunities. So yeah, just be ready for that, I guess. So you've obviously worked for Acla, Riderware, Frank Green and some of those brands have really scaled over the last kind of five to six years which you've been a part of. I'm keen to understand, from your point of view and your experience, what makes a successful e-commerce business.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure. So I think, in terms of what makes a successful e-commerce business, I think, having that focus on having a really fantastic customer experience. I think that ensures that it reassures customers at every step of the customer journey. So, whether that be through, you know, utilizing social proof, so making sure that you have sort of reviews featured, utilizing influencer content, constantly reiterating what those free shipping thresholds are throughout the site, making returns easy, having the availability of all the payment methods that customers expect to see. So buy now, pay later services and ensuring that you have really accurate size guides.
Speaker 2:I think, coming from fashion, a lot of those things super, super important. You know, I think, constantly optimizing for conversion rate and for average order value. I think a lot of businesses don't understand the dollars that they are leaving on the table by being willing to invest in, you know, sending lots of paid traffic to the site, but not being willing to invest in having a skill set in their business that can kind of get that customer experience to the level that it needs to be at. And obviously, if you're improving your conversion rate and improving your average order value I always bang on about this, but you're going to obviously be able to get significantly more revenue from the customers that you already have coming to your site.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think, from a product perspective, you need to understand who your customer is and either be you know whether it's designing for those customers or creating products for those customers, actually understanding what their I guess functional needs are, but also emotional needs. I think there are businesses that decide they want to create an e-commerce business and kind of just throw product at the wall and try and hope that something sticks. But I think having a really solid understanding of your market, potentially where your niche could be in that market, understanding how saturated or not saturated the area of the market is that you're trying to get into, is really super important. I think in fashion in particular, you need to be really willing to invest in content and that you know doesn't necessarily need to be getting you know your product on people that have 1 million followers. I think that can be. You know really authentic content, that whether you're working with you know micro influencers.
Speaker 2:Just you know, getting the product on the right people who have high engagement rates, you know the amount of purchases that I know friends, colleagues are now are making off the back of seeing a very low production TikTok video. Just because they actually see how the product looks on a real person is so important. You just can't sleep on content anymore. I think you know we've known that for a while but with the rise of TikTok you just really, if you're not willing to sort of invest in that, particularly in the fashion space, I think you'll be left behind.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then, I think, just ensuring that your product's profitable. I mean, you can't invest in any of the things above that I, you know, just mentioned if you don't have the profit from your product to sort of reinvest back into the business. So, yeah, I think, making sure that the economics of your product makes sense and that, yeah, you can reinvest back into the business so that you can afford to do all of those things and create the great experience and create the content.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, there's a lot in that answer so we've got a bit to go back on and cover.
Speaker 1:But I think one of the first points you mentioned was around that customer experience, which is, you know, obviously vital and why, you know, shopify kind of exists to really help you with that customer experience to some degree, or help you know people that perhaps aren't as strong in that area or at least be level in terms of a playing field. But customer experience is interesting because, yeah, like you might think that you playing field, but customer experience is interesting because, yeah, like you might think that you have a good customer experience, yet if you haven't looked at others in that space or or what's happening in 2024, you could be left behind. I think that's something, an area that some brands you know perhaps think that their, their cx is actually not too bad, but they don't really have anything to measure it off. So do you have any tips on how to actually know whether you've got a great customer experience or not? Is there anything that kind of stands out that would trigger a review into your CX?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I mean I think, coming back to conversion rate again, that's obviously such an important one. If you're successfully sending a lot of traffic to your website off the back of what you're doing organically or through paid channels and your conversion rate is sitting below benchmark for your industry, I think that should be the first trigger to be thinking about what you're doing on site. As I said before, if you're sending traffic into the funnel and they're just spilling out the other side, there's something going wrong from a conversion rate perspective or an online experience perspective.
Speaker 2:So I think, making sure you're closely monitoring that and I don't think there's any perfect benchmark for conversion rate. Obviously, it's going to depend on the price of your product, the markets that you're selling into, the age of the people that you're selling to. But Shopify has some good benchmarking data in their backend, depending on the plan that you're selling to. But Shopify has some good benchmarking data in their backend, you know, depending on the plan that you're on, and there's obviously heaps of stuff, heaps of, you know, data online that you can look into. So, yeah, making sure that you're sort of working towards you know those benchmarks, but also just constantly improving. You know you only need to be better than what you were yesterday. So I think, constantly monitoring that.
Speaker 1:That's a good tip and also just on that. So I think constantly monitoring that that's a good tip, and also just on that. So, like, what I see too is like anywhere between that 2% and 3% is kind of a very generic answer. You know what I mean. Like, if it's between 2% and 3%, you're not far away, but I do see brands that get a lot more visitors and that's sort of close to the 2% mark. And then I do see emerging brands that aren't quite getting the traffic but have a really good product and they convert. You know, 3%, 4%, 5%.
Speaker 1:So, you know either end of that, there's probably a different issue at play. But 2% to 3% as a very generic e-commerce guide if you're listening to this episode is probably where you'd want to be sitting. Obviously, the higher the better, but anything under 2% you potentially do have a CX issue that you need to address.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I went from one business where you saw that the average price of a product was, I don't know, the $50 to $70 mark to a business where the average price of a product was the $500 mark. So obviously there's going to be quite different expectations around the journey that a customer has to go on before they're willing to purchase a $50 product versus a $500 product. So I think you know when you're looking at your conversion rate, overlaying that into your expectations, and obviously a cheaper product will likely convert better than a product where maybe customers need to come back, you know, three, four, five times before they're willing to make that purchase.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so true. Did you notice or have you noticed in your time in e-com that the more expensive the product, the more touch points you need to nurture to get that conversion?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, you know, particularly in the current economy. You know, we know that people don't have a lot of disposable income at the moment. So I think, if you want people to spend a lot of money on a product that they could maybe not get the same quality but similar elsewhere, you know providing that. You know assurance around returns, around sizing, around quality. You know and also taking them on the journey, though, of why does that product cost what it does. Is it because it was designed in Australia? Is it because of where it was made? Is it because of the fabrication? Is it because of the detailing? You have to take the customers on that journey, and just because you understand why a product costs what it does to make, you can't expect that a customer understands that as well. So, really, the storytelling, I think, is really important for products that are at that higher price point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a fantastic insight, A really good tip as well, and probably that also then builds nicely into that social proof which you mentioned before. So the role of organic social when you speak to some brands or some founders, it's hard to sort of put an ROI on the organic social, especially if it's on Facebook and Instagram, where you're not kind of getting the reach that you once were, but you still think organic social is super important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean I think the content that you create on organic social can then be fed into your paid channels as well. I also think that there's potentially a misconception that all of the content that you're creating has to be very overproduced and very perfect, and obviously, you know it depends on the brand and what you're trying to portray. But in my experience, authentic sort of scrappy filmed on an iPhone content is often what converts and I mean you can use your paid channels to test what does work best for your brand to an extent. So, yeah, I think that yeah, there's definitely that misconception that you have to be spending a lot on your content. I think you obviously need to have the time and resourcing to create it, but I think consumers are often, in some cases, responding a lot better to you know that authentic content which can be utilized across organic social. You know, I think TikTok's obviously a huge one at the moment Instagram, but then amplifying that out through your paid channels as well and seeing what works best from a paid perspective.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, exactly. And how's your own TikTok game going? Are you publishing content on there, or do you leave that to the e-com brands that you consult and work with?
Speaker 2:I'm definitely not posting any, but I consume a considerable amount of TikTok. It's bad and if I didn't need to be on it for work I'd probably just delete it, but it's addictive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, they build it that way, don't they? Yeah, they know what they're doing. Yeah, exactly, but yeah, I think that's social proof and, as you say, that authentic, raw, genuine, kind of behind the scenes founder-led stories is something that we can all kind of get around, and I think even you know there was a study that come out from Shopify recently around the fact that I think it's Gen Z pretty much have grown up now with digital ads their whole life. They understand what an ad is and it's super easy to skip. But if you can actually tell a bit of a story and show behind the scenes and, as you say, even you had a really good example there of just explaining why something costs a certain price, educate the audience and make them aware of the reason and the quality and whether it might even be sustainability and that's bumped up the cost or anything like that, but anything you can do to really educate people and bring them along with that story is pretty powerful.
Speaker 2:Yeah and you make a really good point as well about having the content be right for the channel. You know there's nothing worse than being on TikTok and you scroll to something and I'm like, well, this is very clearly an ad. You know someone's just resized a campaign video, chucked it up on TikTok. I'm going to scroll right past it. It's that really engaging. You know, authentic content that feels like it's been made for the channel, where you don't even realize it's an ad. That's the sort of content that's going to get cut through, not the stuff where you go. Don't want to say that.
Speaker 1:More advertising scroll right past it. Yeah, yeah, exactly, and that's generally that more polished kind of video which just has its place, but maybe not on TikTok. Speaking of TikTok and social influencers, Is there any brands that you follow or you think are doing a great job when it comes to their social media, their organic social, or you mentioned you're on TikTok a little bit more than you'd like to be. Are there any brands that you've noticed that have stood out that our listening audience can jump on and give a follow and watch what they do and try and apply some of the same type of content?
Speaker 2:I think there's a women's wear fashion brand out of Melbourne called Henny, who I think are doing quite a good job of what they're doing in the influencer space, because they obviously create their own content which they put out through their channels. But I think they're also getting the content on the right people. I'm seeing their product on a lot of people who I follow, who they've, you know, obviously been gifted. No, it's not sponsored, it's not an ad. But you know they're creating that sort of FOMO or seeing that product on those influential people and they make you want it.
Speaker 2:But I think also they do a fantastic job of they actually are using an application on their website which basically seems to be that if a product's been tagged on their Instagram channels, it automatically feeds through onto the product page. So when you're looking at a product, sort of in the sidebar, it'll also say you know, I think it says something like see how this product looks on so-and-so and you can actually click into sort of social videos or imagery. So I think they're making sure that they sort of get the maximum sort of ROI on that product by using sorry, on that content, by using it across organic paid, using it on the website. You know doing that gifting to create more content. So, yeah, I mean I think they're definitely very saturated in the social space at the moment, but in a good way you can't get away from it and I really think it makes you want the product. It makes you feel like you're missing out if you don't have it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll definitely give them a follow. I'll be interested to have a look at their PDP page and see how that all is laid out, because, yeah, it sounds super powerful, especially when people are considering the product. Yeah, yeah. So we've spoken a little bit about social proof, customer journey. You touched on there, the unit economics and making sure you're profitable as an e-commerce manager throughout your career. Are there some metrics that just matter more than others? I know it's quite a broad question and it really depends on the brand, but if you had to make up a dashboard for any sort of e-commerce business, what would be some of the main metrics that you look to be monitoring on a daily or weekly basis?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2:So I think, outside of conversion rate and average order value, which we already touched on a little bit, I think customer lifetime values one that I think is really important for brands. So, understanding not just what the average customer is spending in one transaction, but what the average customer is going to spend over their lifetime as a customer with you and I think this is so important because that number can act as such a North Star when you're working out, I guess, what's acceptable to pay to acquire a new customer. And I think you know, we know we're losing a lot in terms of analytics on the paid digital side. But if you can sort of understand what it costs as an average to acquire a new customer and compare that against how much they're going to spend on average, I think, yeah, that can be a really good guiding light. You know, if you're selling a $30 product and it's costing you $30 to acquire a customer and they're only buying with you once, then that's a huge problem. But if it's costing you $30 to acquire a customer and over the course of their journey with you they spend $1,000, well then that's probably pretty good. So I think that's why it can be such a good metric to put things into perspective.
Speaker 2:I think returns rate and returns data is a really important one to be looking at.
Speaker 2:Not necessarily because I think whoever's managing the e-commerce channel you know is responsible for things like sizing or how something fits or the quality of something, but I think that there's so much golden data in your returns data to be able to provide a better customer experience.
Speaker 2:So, staying close to that and, you know, being able to look at a product and going okay, well, actually, you know we've sold however many of these and 70% of people have returned them because they've said that it fits. It's not fitting true to size. That's an opportunity where you can add that information to the PDP or to feed that back to the production or product team. Customers are telling you that there's a quality issue or that something's shorter than it should be. That's your opportunity to sort of be reactive and resolve that. So I think yeah, I think a lot of e-commerce teams don't put enough time into sort of reviewing their returns data and making sure that that gets back to the right people. It's all sitting there. So if you can, then yeah, feed that back into the information that you have on your product pages and back to the people who are responsible for creating the products. I think that that's really important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. How would they get that returns data? They would have to be really close with their customer service team and the returns team would probably sit within that. Is that right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so usually if you're using as long as you're using some sort of returns portal, you can usually get a nice export file out of there which you can then, usually you know, pivot out into a table and sort of have a look at. You know, how many products were sold versus how many products were returned. So I've used a product called Returns Go a fair bit throughout my journey and, yeah, they do exactly that so they can tell you actually how many units have been sold and how many units have been returned, so you can kind of know your benchmark and understand if there's a product that's sitting quite above that benchmark, and then obviously then drill down into what were the returns reasons. Because, yeah, you will find that most customers won't necessarily reach out to your customer service team unless they're really disappointed about something, but if something just doesn't fit, they'll probably just return it and say it was too small and send it back. So, yeah, utilizing that data, yeah, interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I also had a try with Mira, peter, sarah, dick Evans on recently and they were kind of really helping with that returns policy by. I'm not sure if you're aware of that app. It's a fairly new app but you can install that on your fashion e-com site then you can try on. You can actually like click and try on. The orders get shipped to you, you try them on and then you just keep what you what fits and return what you don't. So you know, for fashion brands even, that that could be a good way to monitor your returns or reduce the returns a little bit further as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah that's a really good one. And then I would say, probably another big one for me would just be around fulfillment timeline. So understanding how quickly you're fulfilling orders, you know, does that align to what you're telling customers on site? I think as, working in e-commerce, I've obviously always had a big focus on what happens before the purchase, but I also think that what happens after the purchase is super important.
Speaker 2:So making sure that customers are getting that order in the timeline that you know you've specified to them and you know overachieving on that where you can, I think there's nothing better than placing an order online and then, you know, a couple of hours later you get the email saying that it's already been shipped. I just think that's the best thing ever and, you know, sometimes that means it gets to you the next day or even the day following. But I think also from an efficiency piece, you know, making sure you're hitting those fulfillment timelines obviously keeps customers happy, but it's also going to reduce the amount of inquiries that your customer service department is having to deal with, because obviously, as soon as you start missing those timelines, that's you know when you'll get understandably frustrated customers reaching out to you. You know, particularly having worked in the fashion industry. If customers want something, usually they might want it for a potential event or they need it for the weekend. So making sure that you're meeting those delivery promises, I think is really important.
Speaker 1:Great insights. I think that's yeah, you're right, it's super, super important. And you know, with some of the bigger names out there, with amazon and that sort of being so good at it, you know you sort of do need to to ensure that your communication standards are certainly up to par in terms of at least letting them know where it's at, and if you can achieve that's only going to help you. And yeah, I completely agree around, you know that post-purchase, like when you get the conversion, that's almost like the start of your job really. Yeah, even though we have to put so much in place to get the conversion. But then, yeah, as you said, to improve that lifetime value, you know things like transparency and communication around shipping and delivery is going to really help that lifetime value metric that you mentioned earlier absolutely in your opinion?
Speaker 1:uh, what makes a great e-commerce manager?
Speaker 2:Ooh, what makes a great e-commerce manager?
Speaker 1:It's another broad question for you to handle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's broad but it's a good question. I think what makes a good e-commerce manager is that you need to have a good understanding of what I would call the big three in e-com. So I think marketing's obviously a part of it, but then I think also having an understanding of business to an extent and also operations to an extent. And I think a lot of people end up in e-commerce manager roles or in the e-commerce sort of industry coming off the back of marketing, which is great. I think there's not really a clear cut sort of. It's not something you can really study or a clear cut way to get into the e-commerce industry. So I think a lot of people do end up coming from marketing and I think obviously you know from marketing. You bring a lot of the skills around. You know how to create a, you know a beautiful product, you know how to make sure that the things that you're putting out a brand aligned. You know how to come up with a promotion or a tactic to bring more people on site. But I think, coming back to what we were saying about how getting that purchase is almost the start, I think there's so much that comes after that that's really important for an e-commerce manager to understand. So it's not just being able to say you know, we've come up with this promotion to drive increased revenue on site. It's then being able to think from that business perspective about okay, but if we're having this promotion on site, what's that going to do to our GP? Should we be paying to get traffic to this site for this promotion or should we be pushing it purely through organic channels because of the impact that it's having to price From an operational perspective, being able to think what impacts could this have on our warehousing or our 3PL?
Speaker 2:How much do we think volumes are going to go up? I don't think anyone ever has a crystal ball, but I think there's a lot of stakeholder management in terms of, you know, do I need to sit down with my warehouse manager and brief them on this promotion that we're doing and they might potentially need to put more staff on? Do I need to sit down with my customer service team and brief them on, potentially, the questions that come through from customers? And I think, yeah, there's obviously a lot of flow on effect to the changes you might make to a website or new functionalities that you might add where you really need to ensure that you're sort of bringing the warehousing team, the customer service team, along for the journey, but also making sure that those changes are going to be positively affecting the bottom line.
Speaker 2:And yeah, I think it's not enough to just say my e-commerce strategy is launching new products each month and running a couple of promotions throughout the year. It's all those other things that you're doing to impact the customer journey which don't just touch the website. They probably touch every part of your business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right, and the more you say that, you know, I've always or lately, I've been of the belief that digital marketing manager we're almost sort of setting them up to fail and perhaps an e-commerce manager would be in the same role. Because you've got to, as well as those big three that you touched on, you've also got to manage a team generally, depending on how big the business is, probably got to manage a team, manage some agency agencies that you may be outsourcing to for various sort of roles within that, and then, yeah, obviously, manage up to the board or the CEO or the founder around commercial acumen. You've got to understand kind of the digital strategy as well. So it's a massive role. It's just getting bigger and bigger and bigger, I think, as the digital landscape changes. E-commerce managers they have to do a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you're so right about that commercial perspective and I think being great at being an e-commerce manager can obviously be delivering growth from a revenue perspective, but it can also be delivering savings from a profitability perspective. So making sure that you're on top of your warehousing costs, if you you're using a 3PL, you know being constantly willing to sort of go back and renegotiate your freight rates, like there's so much you can be doing sort of obviously to actually grow revenue, but then you know increasing sorry, decreasing your operational expenses. So it is one of those roles where scope creep can just happen so quickly and all of a sudden you know your fingers are in sort of every pie in the business. But you have to be willing to do that because, yeah, it is sort of a department that touches most key stakeholders in a business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. So we mentioned Henny as a brand that you sort of follow. Is there any other brands that you love the look of, the UX or the UI experience that our listeners can kind of jump on the website and check them out?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think Henny is definitely doing a really good job at the moment. So, in addition to the influencer what they're doing with influencer content that I mentioned before I really love that they have multiple free shipping thresholds, which I know I've seen other brands do, but I think it's usually pretty common to just have one free shipping threshold, spend this much, get free shipping, Whereas they have one threshold to get you up to free standard shipping and then they have a little bit of a bigger threshold to get you up to free express shipping, and that's definitely gotten me a few times. So I think, and the way that they communicate, that is really clear and beautiful, which I think is important. Obviously, you can do that, but how you actually communicate it to the customer so that they're not just confused is really important.
Speaker 2:Commonry is another women's wear fashion brand and I'm really enjoying that. On their collection page you can actually toggle between seeing the products on a size 10 and a size 16 model, which I think is a really a really great functionality. And, as someone who usually sits in between those two sizes, actually being able to see how the product looks on different body shapes is really nice. You know, in the past. You know, a lot of businesses have obviously shot their products on multiple models. But you've sort of got to click into the product display page, go through sort of all the imagery and see if it's been shot on a different model, but in this one you can literally just toggle between the two sizes, which I think is a really really nice user experience, and then probably I think Mecca, like that's a classic you know, a lot of people would say Mecca, but I do think that they're one of the only businesses in the Australian e-com marketplace who are probably actually seeing a return from what they're investing into the loyalty space with their program.
Speaker 2:I think they've also got an app now, which is quite a nice experience, and they're really pushing that loyalty piece through that as well. Got me the other day. I sort of went into the app because I needed to just repurchase something that I'd run out of, but I sort of got a little notification at the front that told me if I, you know, spent a little bit more, that it was going to push me up into the next level of the loyalty program, which I then knew would mean I would get all these additional free things throughout the year. So, yeah, they got me and I think that they do that loyalty in a really premium way and you know the way that they incorporate like reviews into their site has just made you know, buying beauty products online, which isn't something you know you traditionally probably would have done 10, 15 years ago They've made it really easy and have that social proof so that you feel confident in what you're buying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, really interesting, I think. Yeah, perhaps loyalty is something that I'm probably guilty of on the podcast. I'm not talking enough about, but yeah, when we're talking about, you know, retention versus acquisition and keeping customers and improving that lifetime value, then that loyalty piece, goes without saying, is super, super important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think as well, like understanding your brand and what makes sense from a loyalty perspective and you perspective, and understanding your customers more price-driven, are they more experience-driven? Would they prefer to be given the ability to potentially come to this exclusive event or would they rather just have dollars off? And I think being able to understand what's going to be important to your core customer is what enables you to create a really successful loyalty program, because I think otherwise they just sit on your website and you probably pay for the platform that you used to have it there and they might actually not necessarily be driving sort of a return on investment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, really great advice. All right, we'll check out those websites and have a bit of a look at how they're doing it. How do you get content to cut through in 2024, especially Facebook? You're just not getting the reach that you once used to. Not sure anyone your age and younger uses facebook anymore. Maybe it's more my age, but uh, yeah, how do you get content to cut through and assist in, you know, growing your e-commerce business?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, facebook still gets me because I'll never be able to delete it because I have to have access to ads manager, so I feel like they've gotten all the digital marketers there to stay forever. But yeah, in terms of getting your content to cut through, I think back to similar to what I was saying before. I think authentic does win out over polished content in most cases and, as we were saying, making sure that the content is right for the platform. You know, not putting a campaign video on TikTok it's very obvious that it's not supposed to be there.
Speaker 2:I think leaning on working with content creators as well should be, you know, a really important part of any business's social media strategy and I think you know the focus definitely doesn't need to be on getting your product on someone with a million followers anymore. I think you know if you can do that and afford that and they have great engagement, then fantastic. But I think there's so much to be gained by working with micro influencers who actually resonate with an audience that's similar to yours and have very high engagement rates. You know I've bought things that I've seen people on TikTok with only a couple of thousand followers where, because it resonated with me and they understood what I was looking for. So I think that can be a really great way to create more content that gets cut through.
Speaker 2:And I also just think, if you're not sure, just A, b testing the different types of content that you have. I feel like I've been in lots of rooms in the past where there's discussions on what content is going to work the best. What should we create? Where should we lean into? And I think the beauty of digital marketing is that you can sort of create some pilot content for whatever you're wanting to test, sort of put it out there and see what resonates. The data's there, and I think, yeah, you don't always have to be, I guess, so concerned about being able to come up with the exact answer. It's being willing to sort of try new things and see what works and constantly iterating on on what you're doing.
Speaker 1:let that data do the talking yeah, that's a great answer and it's so true around testing. But I've been in quite a few conversations this year as well around oh that's sort of not really on brand or whatever, but I feel like there's not too much damage. That can be done by trying, especially on organic social, trying a few different things and seeing what works and what doesn't, within reason. But you've got to be willing to, yeah, put yourself out there and test some different styles. I'm sure that the content creators that are getting the most engagement didn't go safe and try and stick to brand.
Speaker 2:They actually went outside of that and tried something different and then it just had massive success. And yeah, and I think also, if there's something that you think isn't on brand and you put it out there and test it and it works, then maybe it's worth going back to the drawing board and, I guess, having a think about, like, whether that you're understanding the brand correctly and, potentially, that that is an area of the market that you're missing. If there yet is this influencer or content creator that you don't necessarily feel is on brand, but then the content that they put out or that you utilize on your channels converts quite heavily, I think that's actually quite a nice insight to be gained, and if that's not the way it works, then that's great. You've sort of confirmed what you already know, and I think that's the beauty of testing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome. Fantastic One last question If you're starting a new e-commerce business from scratch and let's just say the product's fantastic, we've got a great product, what would be your first couple of steps? How would you try and get some sales and get to that first benchmark, whether it be 20K a month in sales or whatever it is? What would be the kind of the playbook for you to get some sales through the door initially?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think definitely using Shopify as the website management system. I'm a big Shopify advocate and I just think it's so easy to create a beautiful site that really ticks all of those sort of user experience boxes without too much effort. I think you said the product's great, but I think ensuring that you're then keeping that great product in stock you know, I see it happen all the time where a business's core best-selling product I don't know whether it's an activewear brand and it's their best-selling pair of black leggings goes out of stock, and so I think making sure that, yeah, you understand what those core products are that are going to keep customers coming back, and ensuring that, yeah, you keep those in stock, is super important.
Speaker 2:The amount of ads that I have clicked in the last few months that have taken me to an out-of-stock product blows my mind and I think it's because it's hard for businesses to sort of keep on top of all the different content that they have out there and which products it's you know directing customers to. But I just there's again so much money being lost, I think, from clicking through to ads that where the products yet not in stock anymore. I think definitely leaning on that influencer piece. So yeah, in the early days of starting a business, you might not necessarily have a lot of capital to work with, but getting your product on those people that are aligned to the customer base that you're wanting to target and then using, you know, meta ads to amplify that content out and really testing you know what's going to work for your business. I think you know in the early stages it's definitely worth investing in obviously high quality. You know e-commerce product imagery. But if you're not at the stage yet where you can sort of afford sort of big scale campaigns or getting that really polished imagery, I think leaning quite heavily into the creator space, particularly TikTok we're just seeing how quickly things can go viral and take off when they're talked about on TikTok in the right way. So, yeah, using meta to then amplify that content out Plus, I think, really focusing on building your email list.
Speaker 2:I think email is so important and it's not really something we got to touch on a lot of. But obviously that's your data, you own it. But I think making sure that you're using it in the right way there are so many brands out there who are just sort of sending their emails out to their entire database and not sort of being strategic about who those emails are hitting. And obviously it's quite, you know, there's a time aspect of building emails and designing them, but they're quite a cost-effective method for reaching your audience. So, yeah, making sure that you're like giving customers the information that is relevant to them in the right place is really important and not just slamming them with emails that might not necessarily be relevant. So whether that be sort of capturing some additional data when moving those customers into the email list, yeah, I think emails are a really important part of that strategy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, fantastic, it's a great answer. So you'll go influencer good products, shopify, website, social content influencers and, as you said, they don't have to be millions of followers or, you know, it could just be. You know, I think, as in that recent shopify report, 51 of people find new products through word of mouth, through friends, so that doesn't need to be these massive influencers that you've got to pay money to. It could be some of those really micro-influences that are very genuine and people actually believe a lot more around what they say. They don't even need to, really. I mean, there's plenty of TikToks that don't even call out the product, isn't it? It's just literally, they're wearing it or they're using it while talking about something else, so it's not even a hey, look at this, I bought this. You know, buy this. It's a background item that people pick up on as well at times.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think the earlier on that you can understand what resonates with your audience and what doesn't, the better, because then that you can use that to inform your future marketing strategy, what you do on the website, what sort of product you create. So, yeah, I think getting that understanding really early on is super important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, fantastic. That's it for now. I'm going to get kicked out of the room here in a second, so I'm going to have to say goodbye for this podcast episode. But yeah, we could chat for hours. I think it's really insightful. I appreciate you giving us some of your time and I'm sure our listening audience got a lot out of this today. So, yeah, all the best with whatever comes up next for you in 2024. Sounds like it's going to be Adelaide. Still, you're pretty sort of ingrained into the Adelaide culture, which is fantastic. But yeah, look forward to having you on again at some point soon.
Speaker 2:Thanks, ryan, it was so great to chat.
Speaker 1:Cheers.
